Comments Received From the Climbing Community | ||
| 5 In Favor, 23 Opposed | ||
| Is this all we have this to look forward to in Eldo - a route squeezed in every 10 feet on every last tiny little section of climbable rock? When does it end? What does our park look like in 10 or 100 years? Chalk it up as a TR problem. This is the kind of development I would expect in Boulder Canyon or North Table, not Eldo. - Nate | ||
| Pathetic. Asthetic position? What a joke. There is NOTHING exceptional or outstanding about this line, just that it is possible to squeeze another line in. Why bother? Do it in Boulder Canyon or Clear Creek! If this is approved, anything will go. | ||
| This lets the camel get his nose in the tent door. Eldorado ain't no stinkin' sport area! Keep these things out! If someone is competent enough to make these moves, they're competent enough to handle the scrambling to set up a toprope. We don't need bolt routes. | ||
| Do we need another bolted attraction up at Rincon? Looks like a sound proposal, but Eldo won't suffer if it doesn't go in. | ||
| I think this route would be a bolted squeeze job, not in character with the crag or the Canyon in general. | ||
| No. Too close to Spicoli. Let's not make this a sport area. TR the bugger if you must. TR is a legitimate method of protection. | ||
| This route is not in keeping with the 'flavor' of Eldorado and will only be one more step towards turning this part of Rincon into some stupid 'sport crag'. Anyone wanting to do 'clip ups' should go elsewhere. | ||
| I am in favor of a modest number of bolt lines in traditional areas. I've done my share of 'death routes', in Eldorado and elsewhere, over 35 years of climbing and appreciate the experience. However, it is a pleasure to have good gear, even if not natural, on some routes which are not naturally protectable and provide excellent climbing in areas not designated 'sport'. These areas are usually the most beautiful, the most exposed and dramatic, like Seneca Rocks, for instance, my local crag, and it is a pleasure, not completely absent of risk, to do these 'safe' climbs in these amazing places. Everyone loves dramatic, accessible, as it were, bolt lines in beautiful areas and it doesn't necessarily mean this same everyone is cowardly. Pick and choose the battles, but a few routes such as this one will probably not destroy Eldo and the added variety will make the climbing better. Besides, on a slightly different subject, top roping changes the quality of a route, or an area, considerably. It isn't just another "legitimate method of protection". It is better to promote an aesthetic of leading. The presence of lead bolts tends to discourage top roping and the concomitant crowds, which definitely disturb the natural and the social environment considerably. However, I haven't seen or done the proposed route, so what do I know? I am simply suggesting a standard for judgment. | ||
| Given that the bolts are to be placed just body length apart, it will essentially be the same as a top rope in terms of exposure. Let's just keep it as a top rope route. | ||
| With so much rock available in other areas of eldo it seems weird to squeeze a route that is climbable on TR in between two other routes! The route does not lead to the top of a formation, doesn't even have a second pitch! As mentioned above, this is a route that belongs in Boulder Canyon or some other sports climbing grid bolted crag. | ||
| Ive done this route on TR and think it would make a better bolt route than trad route, there being no pro and a few friable holds. I dont think its particularly squeezed in, compared to the roof routes for example. | ||
| Please, Please, Please do not bolt this route. It is fine as a TR. There are plenty of 'sport parks' in boulder county, let's not make Eldo one of them. I plead to you, don't bolt it!!! Jay | ||
| I see no need to add fixed hardware when toproping is an option. | ||
| I agree with the person who said "I am in favor of a modest number of bolt lines in traditional areas". While appreciating the underlying trad ethic of Eldo, it is hard to align with people who mouth off about 'stinkin sport climbs,' and characterize anyone who climbs on bolts as a candyass. I agree with the same person about it being better for ACE to promote leading rather than TR'ing in order to discourage large groups of under-qualified individuals from monopolizing a route. (Although this may be less of a consideration for a climb of this difficulty, on this wall). I can't assess the quality of the climb from the photos, and haven't done the neighborhing routes. If the proposed route will be a really good line (like, stars in the guide book?) I say do it. If not, let the wall be. | ||
| I find the reason, "it would give climbers a second clip-up option on the wall" to not be valid. I've seen many bolts in Boulder Canyon placed next to cracks so that people do not have to be inconvenienced by carrying a rack. I do not at all support this way of thinking in Eldo. And besides, who climbs in Eldo because of the "clip-up options". | ||
| I feel this would be a squeeze job. Please do not bolt it. | ||
| I have not climbed the proposed route, but have examined it recently from the ground. Spicolis Neighbor (i.e. SN) is on high quality stone, independent and aesthetic. However, the addition of the route will overcrowd the area. These diametrically opposed facts balance the crux of the debate. Question. Do all routes have to be lead ground up to be valid? Historically, the "American" answer is an unequivocal yes. In a perverted Europeanization of our past its now status quo to bolt top down. Once top down bolting took foot the next disease set in - route concentration madness (i.e. akin to refer madness, but is proponents often trump up narcissism as opposed to drug inhalation as their primary impetus). Typically, the effect of route concentration, much like all polemic debates, depends on whom you talk to. There can never be enough to the sport devotee and vice versa for trads. Climbing seems to often transcend sport and often intersects somewhere between esoteric art and gymnastics played out in vertical arenas. Constantly, the arena is under threat from a multitude of self-serving interests: mining industry, timber industry, big business, etc. As stewards of nature our calling is to preserve and enhance the little playgrounds society has staked out for us. All to often our modern world tries to teach us that the _me_ attitude is not only acceptable, but more importantly it's the only sure fire way to get ahead. Sport climbing fits the shoe nicely. Clip the bolts, send, lower, untie, queue next leader, repeat... Packing more routes into Rincon will set a bad precedent. Once you give an inch they will take a mile. Sport Park, Table Mountain and a host of other contenders thrash to the front row as Exhibit A in a world where the mental masturbations of first ascent at all cost derides our responsibility to future generations. If you really want to send Spicolis Neighbor, then head point it until its dialed and then solo it. Better still, on-sight solo. Spicoli himself was a rebellious tweaked out surfer teen bent to revolt at all cost. I wonder if his movie neighbor was a conservative bolting thug or a visionary of eloquence and insight? Joseph Crotty | ||
| I was asked to comment on this proposal since it's next to Spicoli. I think my comments may not be perfectly objective, though. Having read the comments on all the proposals, it seems that public opinion is nixing all new bolted routes in Eldo. I understand these sentiments. At this point it looks like no new routes will ever be bolted in Eldo if public opinion has the final say. Perhaps the FHRC will only have to consider fixed rap anchor replacements from now on. There is no way Eldo will ever turn into Bldr Canyon/N. Table/Clear Crk..., especially with ACE and FHRC involved, and that's good. One of the stated goals of the FHRC is to allow for limited new (bolted) route development. Why? I think it's because new route development is seen as a vital part of climbing, and completely banning bolting stifles the sport's energy too much, even in a historical place like Eldo.I doubt if we'll ever see new bolts next to cracks in Eldo. Eldo will never be at the cutting edge of climbing again, but that doesn't mean that good new routes aren't there or shouldn't be done (bolted under ACE guidelines... or headpointed...). Anyway, concerning this route, I had rapped it when looking at Spicoli, and thought I saw some large scary flakes on the slab below the start of the steeper stuff. I have climbed through the roof and was a little concerned about a huge hanging hollow (not loose) flake where the anchor is. I'm sure the climbing is nice, on a nice wall, but seems perhaps too close to Spicoli for Eldo standards. Mark Tarrant | ||
| It's because of route like this, that we have ACE. Approval of this proposal will diminish the credibility of the commitee. While there may still be some unbolted lines worth putting up in Eldo, this one doesn't make the grade. | ||
| On word that the rock is friable, this one does not seems worthy enough to offset its bolt density and proximity to neighboring climbs. No thanks. | ||
| Tha applicant is withdrawing this proposal from consideration as a new bolted line. Tha applicant agrees with the the statements submitted to date. The route is squeezed in, and while the climbing is actually quite good, it should not be bolted. For those who wish to TR this line, you must lead Spicoli to set the TR anchor, lower off with much rope drag, and have someone second Spicoli before TRing. And be careful of a sharp edge near the lip of the roof. As a side note, the applicant was 25% invested in the route, the other 75% was ambivalent about drilling this line. Even with approval and overwhelming support, I probably would not have bolted this. I agree with Mark that some new bolted lines should be allowed in Eldo. The history of Eldorado includes bolts, period (Guenese, Wide Country, Fira and Ice, etc. etc.). I agree with everyone that this line on Rincon isn't one of them. Thanks for your input everyone. | ||
| It may be a distortion from the photo angle, but I wonder if the anchors for Spicoli had been set higher, and for that matter if Pipeline were feasible to extend diagonally up and right, might it be the case that all of these routes could converge, and share one set of higher anchors? This is one of my old complaints about sport routes and anchors -- they seem to represent a very myopic and short-sighted view of the lines past, present, (and future) in the vicinity. If the climbing above really does "degrade" to easier terrain, then any climber capable of cruxes on these lines should be able to quickly scamper up a little farther, to a shared anchor. The blight of bolts is much more apparent from close groupings of double anchors, than from the single protection bolts below. I see no tree in the photo; what is the climber toproping from, and why can't there be the fixed anchors there? Finally, if a "few smallish flakes that will probably break" do so, is the route going to be climbable or radically harder? If so, bolts will outlive the route and make the whole project a bad ego trip. | ||